Caroline Codsi on gender balance in leadership

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Leading with purpose: Caroline Codsi’s journey to gender parity





Oksana Lavri Future work expert 29. May 2024 10 min read


Table of contents

Leadership and career journey

How do you view the importance of gender balance and diversity, especially within leadership positions?
What unique challenges and opportunities do you foresee for the next generation of leaders?
How have you built and sustained your confidence in a leadership role within the business?
What prompted you at such a young age (17 years old) to make such a difficult decision to move to another country? Where did you find so much courage to do this?
What is one significant insight you’ve gained recently that you might not have believed before?
What advice would you give to other businesses or business owners on maintaining this principle within their companies?


Reflections on the past, future trends, and mentorship

Can you share any mistakes you’ve encountered in your professional journey?
When hiring for senior roles within your business, what specific criteria do you consider, especially concerning gender diversity? What aspects of your business do you believe attract top talent?
What would constitute a successful hire for you in a year? What milestones would signify that the individual has made a significant impact?






Meet Caroline Codsi , Founder of Women in Governance & Parity Certification™. A double TedX speaker, she received many national and international accolades, including being named Top 75 Canadian Immigrants, Top 100 Most Powerful Women in Canada, and Top 100 Entrepreneurs changing the world.
In this interview, Caroline shared insights on her leadership and career journey, underscoring the importance of gender balance and diversity in leadership roles. She passionately advocates for a society where talents of all genders are equally valued and integrated into decision-making processes, striving for a balanced gender parity zone. Caroline’s inspiring story is a testament to the power of persistence, trust, and the relentless pursuit of gender equality, enriching the business.

Leadership and career journey
Caroline Codsi shared key topics of leadership and career paths, highlighting the importance of gender balance and diversity in leadership positions. She emphasized the need for a society where the talents of both men and women are equally valued and integrated into decision-making processes, advocating for a balanced gender parity zone.

Q: How do you view the importance of gender balance and diversity, especially within leadership positions?
When we look at Corporate Canada , corporations that are more gender-balanced at the top in decision-making bodies actually perform better. They have more innovation, a better reputation, and better branding. They penetrate more markets and create more products or services. It’s really the complementarity of talents between men and women we’re looking for, not female domination.

There is no point in replacing male domination by female domination. We are looking to have a balanced society at every level of every organization in every sector.

Certain sectors are doing better, while others are struggling, due to systemic barriers within organizations and women not stepping out of their comfort zones. They don’t take enough chances, they spend too much time calculating risks, and they hesitate when it comes to communicating their ambitions.

It’s essential that women understand they have an important role to play in the top jobs and that men see the benefit of opening the door to women.

We’re looking for a gender parity zone, which is 40-60%, one way or another.

It doesn’t have to be 50-50. A 40-60% balance, where either gender can make up 40% to 60%, allows everyone to contribute fully, bring the best ideas forward, and make the most robust decisions.

This positively impacts any organization’s bottom line and strengthens our economy. This is the type of society we should all want to live in.

Q: What unique challenges and opportunities do you foresee for the next generation of leaders?
Well, the next generation of leaders is quite interesting, considering all we’ve seen recently with COVID; there are so many changes, right? I don’t think there has been such a massive advancement or change. I wouldn’t say advancement, really, because for certain things, I’m a bit concerned. But there are so many changes.

There’s a gap between generations that is wider than ever.

My children are 27 and 28 years old. My stepdaughter is 18 years old. So, there’s only 10 years, and they don’t understand each other. They’re completely different. I see my kids, they’re young, they’re 27 and 28. They’re like, ‘Oh, my God, I don’t understand this youth.’ It’s surprising to me because it’s only been 10 years. I think I see from the younger generations that there is an expectation of equity, not only for gender but for all underrepresented groups.

BIPOC, Black, Indigenous, People of Color, LGBTQ+ members, and people living with neurodiversity or physical disabilities. This has really become non-negotiable for the younger generation.

That is very reassuring. What is more concerning is that the younger generation is not prepared to make the same level of sacrifice as the previous generation.
So yes, it’s great because we all want work-life balance, and we all want to have fun, and we all want to choose where we work, and we want to choose what we do, and refuse doing this, or refuse doing that, but we want the big salary, and we want the big title. I don’t think that’s sustainable. I think every generation has had to make sacrifices to advance their career. And I think every generation has had their share of people prepared to do the jobs that not everybody feels like doing because somebody’s got to do them. That’s a little bit more concerning. But I think it is non-negotiable on the equity front, but it’s polarizing.
As you can see, more and more people say, “This is the minimum that we expect, and we want everybody to have a role to play within the organization. We want inclusive mindsets, organizations, and cultures. At the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got even young people who behave in a very misogynistic manner.

We need to be very cautious because, especially when it comes to women’s rights, they are the first to lose ground in any crisis, whether political, economic, or social.

We’ve seen it during COVID. Women lost their jobs in a disproportionate manner relative to men . First, they were in certain jobs, but also because of unconscious bias, and the people making the decisions of who they were keeping and letting go were often men. Then, some women opted out of the workforce because they were exhausted from managing both the home and the work. But we should be cautious and not think, “Oh, that new generation will not face any discrimination.” I don’t believe that simply because there are extreme right movements that are taking up a lot of space everywhere on the globe. Some young people are also part of these movements.

Q: How have you built and sustained your confidence in a leadership role within the business?
Well, in my case, it’s a bit different from most people. I’ve lived a very unusual life. I was born in Beirut and grew up during the Lebanese Civil War. Between the ages of seven and 22, I lived on three continents. These are very formative years during which people learn and grow. I was also learning and growing, but I’ve learned certain lessons the hard way.
At 17, I moved to Paris on my own. My parents stayed in Beirut. So I was alone in Paris, no parents, no money . I had to find a roof and a job and put myself through school because I hadn’t even finished school at that age. Finding an apartment in Paris was like finding a needle in a haystack. At first, I stayed in a nun’s home for a couple of months while finishing school .
I found a job selling clothes in a high fashion store and was paid only on commission . I quickly made a lot of money because I was a very good salesperson. At 17, I was convincing people to buy entire outfits, not just single items . I was very persuasive. Despite the competition for apartments, I convinced a landlord to rent it to me. I had a roof and a job. Then I got a second job .

I took care of two little boys after school every day from 4:00 PM until their parents came home at 7:00 PM. With these two jobs, one in the evenings and one on Wednesdays and Saturdays, I put myself through school and university, eventually moving to Canada.

These experiences taught me to come out of my comfort zone, be brave, and overcome my fears.

I learned to be bold and that you never know how strong you are until you have no other choice. You can swim or sink—I chose to swim as if I was training for the Olympics. Many of my leadership characteristics today stem from this era.

Later in life I also developed leadership skills like active listening, empathy, and democratic leadership.

It was crucial to embrace feminine characteristics and develop traditionally male-associated traits like networking, negotiating, and being vocal about my intentions and ambitions.

When I was younger, 20-25 years ago, it wasn’t acceptable for women to “brag” about their accomplishments. I didn’t accept this double standard.

I was very vocal about my achievements, which wasn’t natural for women then. Now, it’s more common, but early on, I faced criticism for being proud of my successes. Today, no one dares to criticize me for this.

At the beginning of social media, it felt like women weren’t allowed to have the same opinions or voice the same pride for their work as men.

Q: What prompted you at such a young age (17 years old) to make such a difficult decision to move to another country? Where did you find so much courage to do this?
You never truly know the depth of your courage until you’re faced with a challenge that pushes you to your limits.

I lived in a country where if I was going to stay, I ran the risk of either dying, losing a limb, or becoming handicapped. There was no option. A lot of people stayed, a lot of people died, a lot of people were crippled. This is where you find it in you, where you see horrors around you, and you think, “Okay, it might be scary over there, it might not be easy over there, but it’s going to be nothing like what I’m going through here.” So, you do it.

Honestly, I think my parents are remarkable enough to let me do it, especially with the Lebanese mentality. All their friends, their family, their neighbors, everybody said, “You’re crazy. How can you let a girl leave at age 17? She’s going to fail, or something horrible will happen to her.” But my parents trusted me fully. My mother used to always tell me, “You’re a genius Carolinette.” When I was five years old, she started telling me this, and so, I did not think I was a genius, but I knew I had parents who trusted me, who had faith in me, and I wasn’t going to disappoint. Yes, I can. This is what has guided my path, my entire life.

Q: Considering all this experience you‘ve gained, especially the one you mentioned about the difference between generations, what is one significant insight you’ve gained recently that you might not have believed before?
I think one of the biggest insights is that nothing is ever the end of the world. When you think you’ve made a huge mistake or when you think something horrible just happened and your world is collapsing, and I’m talking professionally, I’m not talking about something terrible happening personally, but work-wise, something very difficult like losing a job, a big contract, a client or a situation where your reputation is being impacted.

Whatever happens, you will be resilient and bounce back stronger than before. One thing I always remind myself when going through hardship is that ‘this too shall pass’.

Whatever happens, I don’t take one minute to dwell on my misfortune. I’ll go, “Oh, why did this happen? Bad timing? Is there anything I can do about it? Yes, no.” I will put my 100% effort into salvaging and turning the situation over. Okay, I’ve reached a point where there’s no way I can salvage this, then I simply move on.”

I am not wasting one nanosecond of the emotions of my head space dwelling on the past. Okay, how can I jump back stronger than before? The number of times, and this is only with experience, when you’ve had things that disappoint you, and it turns out to be such a great thing. In hindsight, you’re like, “Oh, my God. It is so amazing that this or that happened because this is the only way this new door could open.” Otherwise, it would have never happened. This is so much better. I didn’t see it then; I see it now.

Have faith in life. Trust life. Trust yourself because if you don’t trust yourself, nobody will trust you.

Q: You have mentioned several times that gender equality brings value to business. What advice would you give to other businesses or business owners on maintaining this principle within their companies?
When recruiting, for instance, if you are in a female-dominated field, look for men. If you’re in a male-dominated field, look for women.

It’s not easy because we tend to surround ourselves with people who look like us, sound like us, think like us, have the same academic background. But you have to make an extra effort.
If you’re using recruiters, you should tell them, “Do not give me candidates who are not equal in numbers of men and women.” I want to see the best of the best, but I want to see both men and women.”

It might take more work because there are fewer female candidates and graduates, especially in fields like engineering. It will require extra effort, but it’s worth it.

Also, convincing women to submit their CVs when you’re a headhunter requires additional work. Otherwise, I will only consider a CV if you provide me with a balanced shortlist of three men and three women. And I will choose the best person for the job.
If my top two candidates are a man and a woman, I will choose the gender I need the most . But let’s not stop there. Let’s also consider ethnicity, sexual orientation, and diverse life experiences. This approach will not only bring a higher value and a bigger return on investment to our company but also enrich our work environment and foster innovation . The salary you pay that person, if they’ve experienced something different from what you’ve experienced, will bring more value to your company.



Reflections on the past, future Trends, and mentorship
In a conversation about the past, future trends, and mentoring, Caroline Codsi shared some lessons learned throughout her professional journey, emphasizing the importance of authenticity and openness in leadership. Caroline also shared the hiring criteria for leadership positions, emphasizing the importance of mission alignment, gender diversity, communication skills, and an attitude of technical expertise.

Q: Looking back, were there any mistakes you’ve encountered in your professional journey? Can you share them?
I was criticized for my honesty and openness.

I have had leadership roles in important companies. In my last job that I quit in 2017 to be at the head of Women in Governance full time, I was executive vice president of one of the largest medical expertise firms.
Before that, I was Regional Vice-President of one of the largest career management firms. They used to tell me that I shared too much with my staff and needed to maintain a certain distance. They suggested I get coaching to develop an executive presence that created this distance. I responded, “Do you want to change who I am?”

I believe my openness and transparency is why people trust and follow me. I explained to the coach that authenticity was a critical value that I wouldn’t shy away from. I was adding value to the organization in my own way and showed them that it wasn’t necessary to fit into a mold.

Interestingly, shortly after, the trend of authentic leadership seemed to gain strength. Suddenly, everything I was criticized for became a strength.

I was recognized for my authentic leadership, which moves mountains. When I left organizations, employees would follow me to new companies, which happened several times. Finally, being open and honest was valued.

However, I still struggle with not having a filter. I say everything I think, assuming everyone wants to hear the truth, but that’s not always true. Not every truth should be told. I’m still working on this.

I always tell people when they feel hurt by something I said, “Think of the intention.” My intention is never to hurt but to inform. I apologize and thank them for letting me know so I can learn and avoid repeating the mistakes.

After COVID, we had a huge talent shortage, and companies realized the importance of being nice to employees to retain them. Leaders now understand the importance of empathy.

People join a company but leave a leader. To maintain and grow an organization, you should retain your staff.

Q: When you’re hiring for senior roles, or when someone hires for senior roles in your company or the business industry you work in, what specific criteria do you consider, especially considering gender diversity? And what aspects of your business do you believe attract top talent?
I would say that it’s the mission. It’s the fact that you are doing work day after day that is changing society, that you are part of a bigger project, that it’s significant to work.

We are taking concrete action to close the gender gap in the workplace in Canada and the USA.

Today, one million people work for a company with our Parity Certification. All these organizations, 123 companies (some of the top global brands, Accenture, FedEx, Pfizer, Rolls-Royce, French Danonne) that have been working with us, take the time to examine their situation and where they stand on the gender parity spectrum.

These companies want to do the right thing for an inclusive environment and workplace. Whether you’re going to be in sales, marketing, communications, finance, or operations, you are contributing to this work when you are at Women in Governance. We are associated with the top CEOs, politicians, and corporations. It’s a desirable proposition that we have. Now, what do we look for when we hire people? You put your finger on it. Soft skills and attitude because they can learn everything that they need to learn on the job. Of course, I love it when somebody comes with great acumen and will hit the ground running. But I’ve had brilliant people who did not have the people skills, had poor attitudes, or were not kind to their colleagues, et cetera, put a bad atmosphere within the team. You cannot keep these people on your team, even if they’re top performers. I don’t care how much you’re selling, how much your revenue, et cetera.
If one person is bringing down three or five people on the team, the revenue they’re generating is not compensating for the revenue we’re losing because of people who are discouraged, people who feel not valued or not recognized.

To me, attitude is everything. I can accept mistakes, and I can accept people who need to learn and develop their skills. But I do not accept a bad attitude. I don’t accept someone who’s not kind to their colleagues or who doesn’t have their heart in the right place. That is the number one.

Q: What would constitute a successful hire for you in a year? What milestones would signify that the individual has made a significant impact?
Often, the first year for an employee is a year of investment by the organization. You invest in their learning, development, and getting acquainted with everybody.
Traditionally, we used to say that the person costs you money in the first year because you’re teaching them. In the second year, they are now operational. And in the third year, you’re making revenue thanks to the level they reached.

I think this has accelerated. The first six months are a big investment, the second six months are when you’re already seeing their value, and then after that, it’s just exponential.

When you see that your employees are getting along with their colleagues when they go for lunch together, they speak on a friendly basis. When you see that they come up with ideas and suggestions, it means they understand your business enough to have their innovations that might come into play.
They are comfortable knowing what you don’t already do and that their contributions could be useful for your workplace and positive impact. I look for someone vocal during team meetings, with good suggestions, who’s active and demonstrates pride in what we accomplish and what they bring to the mix.

When you hear from other companies, they usually have a three-month probation period. They say goodbye if you don’t achieve the goals in three months. It’s crazy.

Our probation period is six months. In every contract, we give six months. Because in three months, by the time your first 100 days are up, you fully understand, and I take myself as an example. I act fast and powerfully, with a significant impact, but I need to understand completely and fully. Otherwise, I feel I don’t have all the puzzle pieces. Someone who doesn’t know me might think, “Oh, my God, she’s paralyzed. Why is she not doing anything?” Well, I’m still gauging and learning.

For me, it’s important to actually give people a chance. It’s unfair to let somebody go after three months unless it’s just so obvious that they are just not the right person for the job. If that’s the case, you don’t have time to waste.

But if you see potential in a person who is just learning, you have to give them a chance.


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